Indian Logic Forum

Jaganadh · Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: Panini

Dear Collegues,
Paninis grammar deals with pada or vakya (word or sentence ) or both? If both, wich is more important?
Jaganadh.G

Scharf · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:09 am Post subject: Panini: Pada or Vakya

Although VyДЃkaraб№‡a's domain called the pada in contrast to the vДЃkya which is said to be the domain of MД«mДЃб№ѓsДЃ, PДЃб№‡ini derives strings of Sanskrit text under semantic and cooccurence conditions. Bhartб№›hari takes the view that the basic unit of the utterance (or string) is the vДЃkya. Nominal and verbal bases are introduced, and various affixes to them, in the context of the sentence under semantic conditions related to each other in a cohesive larger meaning unit. This larger meaning unit is held by Bhartб№›hari to be only artificially divided into smaller units by the grammarians as a procedural convenience. See George Cardona's PДЃб№‡ini: His Work and Its Traditions, Vol. I, Background and Introduction, 2nd ed. 1997, pp. 147 ff. for examples of how the derivatinal system accounts for sentences.

Mukund Dhaygude · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: Panini

Dear Sir,

To translate word as Pada is wrong. Word is Shabda. Pada has different sense, i.e., that of phonetic/metre/music, etc., from a point of view of chanting. The pada concept comes there. Panini deals with Shabda (Word), Vakya(Sentence). Bhatrhari talks more about Pada.

What we have to see is whether anybody devoted his life to present a unified grammar. Panini is such a fellow who worked on such an endevour and was a grammarian/linguist/language scientist. As we read his works repeatedly different learning evolves and we find a complete grammar system in his works which has a meta language about language which also implies mathematical/logical libguitics.

Of course the great Panini is a historical figure. If any one is trying to reconstruct World languages' unified grammar system, then it is inevitable that Panini will have to be studied by him/her. For a Maths / Systems/ Computer fellow it is more like a rule-based system that Panini evolved which is quickly computerizable. In modern sciences this gets into Artificial Intelligence / Natural Language Processing where we are trying to teach computer machines human languages.

This teaching means that computer machines/systems understand what we write and speak and narrrate. I guess this is enough to begin study about Panini and Math Logic/Math Linguistics leading to Computational Logic/Linguistics.

Professor Mukund Dhaygude
Address : H2/A/E-61,Srirang,Thane(w), 400601, Maharashtra, India
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Scharf · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: Pada, vДЃkya, etc.

Among the many terms for sound, speech, and its units, the following basic meanings are common for these few terms:
Е›abda 'sound, speech, speech unit, word'
pada 'word' (suptiб№…antam padam a pada is that which ends in a nominal or verbal termination)
nДЃda 'sound, noise, music, etc.'

pankaj · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Pada or vakya etc.

Dear scholars,
according to the PДЃnini there is no difference between pada or shabda.
Patanjali starts the BhAshya as a shabdAnushAshanam and he indicats so many times
in bhAshya that we are representing our idea about pada and explaining the pada not vakya. we can see in Pashpashnhika "anabhyupaya asha shabdanAm prtipattau pratipadapAthaбёҐ." Patanjali uses the word "shbda" on the place of pada.
pankaj vyas

Mukund Dhaygude · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: Vyakarana and Nyaya

Dear Vyakaranis' (Grammarians) and Logicians,
We have to read both these knowldge disciplines with universal objective i.e do the Nyaya and Vyakarana formalisms have interconnections ? The obvisous answer is yes. We use language to express logic. So Paribhsha (metalanguage) are common for all knowledge disciplines. Pure Nyaya and applied Nyaya has differnet components. With Net bringing us together worldover we must take best from whereever we get and leave the rest.
What best can we take from Panini (Vyakarana) and Gautam/Kanad and integrate into Russell's work that talks about Principia Mathamatica ? or For that matter Noam Chomskyian paradigms of language hierarchies?
In my opinion, Logic programming (Prolog) takes us the right way. The Western logic is formulative and Indin Logic is descriptive. So one is expressive and other is constructive. The Language scientists also face a similar dilemma with generative grammars and cosntructive grammars.
I guess the search has to be a blend of technology with it. For example one must know that Modern Word Processors (e.g. MsWord ) do build semantic networks that Roger Schank proposed from Yale in 1970/80's. We now have Net Dialog understood at the Net server back ends which do apply logic understanding and linguistic correction mechanisms.
Indian Shastras (Logic and Grammar)are applicable to modern mathematical and computational sciences as well . Very often we Indians are groomed in tradition which only blindfolds us to study Nyaya and Vyakarna to prove Vedanta which is actually a science of reality that is beyond Nyya and Vyakarana. So Bhatruhari may have a relevance but Patanjali will be a detour.
We need to be careful so as not to get lost in the ocean of knowledge. Also Bhatruhari has written about Netti (Morality) which most of the scientists are now bakrupt of. Education , research, trining without morality is worst and useless than many other evils. Apart from intellectual. emotional one must have spiritual quotient. Else we end up in Adi Shankara's Bhaj Govindam where he remrks about grammarians satirically.

Rajendran · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: Panini and vakya

It is undeniable that Paninian grammar was oriented towards Pada and not vakya.Panini has defined pada , but has nowhere defined Vakya.Even Patanjali, referring to Sabdas of the world[laukika], gives only words like gauh/asvah/puruso/hasti as examples when he gives full sentences for vedic sabdas as sam no devirabhistaye.It seems that Bhartrhari brought in a different perspective with his Vakyapadiya.Bhartrhari , like modern Gestalt psychologists is sceptical of the analytical method in understanding language.

Jaganadh · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject:

Paninis grammar and navya nyayikas approach can be used to analyse any language in the world, especially in the computational apect. The mimaska approach too is useful.
The chomskian theory of binding , theta role ,GB theory, Minimalisom can be further modified using paninisn grammar and nyaya mimamsa sabdabodha sidhanta.
The navya nyaya language can be combined with symbolic logic and toher mathematical theories .If such a good work is done we can develoupe a good programming language ; which may help us to represent world knowledge unambigusly. But positive and creative approach from western and traditional sanskrit scholars is necessary. Our forum can have some ininitation for this purpose.

Gopikrishnan · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:

it is obvious that panini's main concern was about words.He constructed vyakarana from the very basement i.e. from letters(akshara samaamnayah).In the second stage he vividly describes constructions of words.Useing these words we construct sentences.
Eventhough sentense is the final goal panini largily ignour it .Exept for karaka he didn't care about any sentense formation process.This karaka too was requered to assign vibhakthis which again come under word construction.
So it is pada which is dominant in paniniya vyakarana.

Mukund Dhaygude · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: Dear Collegues..

My tributes to you all for the quick posts on the forum/bulletin board and thanks to sponsors and managers to create this virtual infrastrsucture so that we all may be physically distributed but can contribute, share , exchnge, evolve and involve.

I guess we all seem to agree about Panini's works. Mimamsa seems to be close what we in modern sense say Management. It could be any system of mangement typical,tropical, projected, cretaed, managed, delivered, quality conscious, quantity oriented (masses being the subject). Any attempt to reconstruct these paradigms have to be relevant in modern times. Rest it will remain a taste of a small group like ours. So we need to redefine our gols , deliverables, time metrics, quality and quantity metrics, our organizational structures, policies, events, programs, finances, promotions etc with a view to reach out.

May be we can also use print media .

Lets reconstruct to evolve and involve more

Mukund Dhaygude